The meeting opened with a moment’s silence to reflect on the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox earlier in the day.
Participants from Glasgow, Wigan, York, Swansea, Carmarthen, London and County Wicklow in Ireland were present.
Introduction by Paul Feldman
Today, as in the immediate post-World War II, there is a global crisis of capitalism. The European Union and its precursors began life as a bureaucratic, rule-governed institution. This was in the post-war period when there was a severe crisis of democracy. Efforts were made to restructure Europe to prevent wars taking place.
Since the foundation of the Council of Europe after World War II, and the European Coal and Steel Community in 1951, we’ve seen the development of globalisation which has to a large extent over-run these organisations. The EU doesn’t have a history of the struggle for democracy within it, whereas in most other countries and parliaments there has been this struggle. That makes it very difficult to see how it can be reformed to become a democratic institution. The corporate takeover has imposed itself on the EU. If it can’t be democratised what do we do?
Corinna
The impetus for the referendum came out of a crisis in the ruling Tory party. Rather than the ruling class being all powerful, Cameron took a calculated risk to quell his internal opposition. But it’s turned out to have unexpected results with today’s poll results revealing a big surge towards Leave. It has become a crisis, not only for the Tories but for all the established political parties.
Some view the referendum as simply reflecting problems inside the Tory party. But due to mass alienation and the general decline of confidence from the political system, it has become a surprising way for people to express their frustration and anxieties and their desire to be involved in politics. People have sprung into the fray for a whole range of reasons. It has upset the apple cart – and is creating serious financial uncertainty. This is not only a terrible, negative thing. Positive change can’t happen without disruption and chaos. It should not terrify us – it’s actually a sign that many people are joining the fray and being involved in politics – without which there can’t be democracy or a democratic movement.
Robbie
Hi everyone. One of the reasons why it’s important to discuss to this is because we need to counter the fantasy EU promoted by quite a few in the Labour Party, some of the trade union leaders – the idea of an EU which is open to change and which is our last hope. If we look at the past few years history of the EU in terms of democracy, the EU in effect overthrew heads of state in Italy and Greece and installed “technocrats” – people who would do the bidding of the European Central Bank and impose austerity. We’ve also seen what they did to the people of Greece – crushed Syriza, the expression of the vast majority of Greek people. This funny idea that the EU is a democratic body which can be influenced. But the evidence is that there is no way to influence events. Most decisions are done by secretive bodies, with no chance of influencing outcomes. The clearest example is the way that negotiatons over TTIP is conducted with MEPs not even being able to see documents. It’s a totally undemocratic body.
Steve Freeman
There is a historical aspect and there is also the crisis of 2008. We could go back to 1929 and 1930 to see the impact of any economic crisis on Europe. One of the impacts is the move towards dictatorial methods. Nothing special about what has happened to Greece, in that respect. Not caused by EU. It’s the crisis of global capitalism. I don’t think anyone thinks that the EU is democratic. Everyone has understood it is not. Nigel Farage builds his campaign on that. I don’t hear even right wing socialists with that argument. We don’t have illusions about that – so Robbie is wrong on that. I also want to challenge what Paul said at the beginning. I disagree with what he says. Please stick me in a queue.
Damien (read out by Penny as there were technical problems)
I think there is little doubt that the EU is not a democracy. We should not get bogged down in a discussion about that. Is there anything we can do? I am in favour of spoiling my ballot paper.
Peter Arkell
The direction of travel since the EU was founded has been consistently a decline of democratic input. The European Parliament there has very little power – things are decided by the Commission. In this period of great crisis of globalisation it is the EU that has quite deliberately on behalf of the banks – especially the German banks – imposed this on the people of Italy and Greece deliberately. What’s happening in this country – the issue of immigration and nationalism that has become so dominant in the headlines – and at least superficially in the arguments – needs to be addressed. I agree with what Penny wrote in her contribution to the discussion on the RDM forum (appended below) and some recent articles in the papers. It’s not a “racist vote”. There is a big shift towards voting for Leave by the working class – it is not racism as such but grabbing hold of any issue that can throw out the Tory government, which they see quite rightly as Cameron and his colleagues. The alternatives set out by Boris Johnson are relatively weak by comparison. The real weight of the ruling classes, including industrialists in Britain is represented by the bulk of the Tories and who are led by Cameron. The content is something else, other than worries about immigration. If the Leave wing of the Tories manage to win they will be very quickly exposed.
Steve
The EU was not democratic in any shape or form at any time. Virtually throughout its existence it has been a purely inter-governmental organisation centred around France and Germany. When the EU parliament was set up (in the 1980s?) it was the first time that there was anything vaguely democratic – by bringing elections into it. Then in 2008 we had the financial crisis – which means that any democracy is destroyed by capital. I think democracy rose and then went back down again. The people in Europe aren’t sovereign in any shape or form. Basically it’s the governing elite but democracy has risen and gone back down again. The real power is between the governments of France, Germany and the UK.
What is happening is a much more dangerous re-division and reshaping of the working class, in a similar way as in the Scottish referendum. I still see the more politically conscious part of the working class is basically going for Remain, through the trade union movement and the Labour Party and the more backward, alienated part of the working class is all going with UKIP and the Labour Party is losing some of its base. Whether that base will stay with UKIP – like they did with the Scottish Nationalists after 2014 remains to be seen. What we might get out of this is a bigger shift by the more backward sections of the working class to the right. I see the SWP and the Socialist Party as arguing an ultra-left kind of politics, in effect tail-ending the backward part of the working class. That’s what they are doing but they are making revolutionary arguments for it in effect. I don’t see that as helpful.
The reformist sections of the working class around the trade union movement have all gone for Remain. We are going to come out of this referendum with a re-defined working class just as we saw after the Scottish referendum. A shift in what is happening. Obviously we have to see the result of the referendum is.
The real origins of the EU – the Common Market in 1956 – come directly out of the war – come out of the Yalta agreement – a block against the Soviet Union. Churchill and Britain stayed out because we had at that time global, imperial ambitions, which it turned out to be instead to become an appendage of America, who wanted us to be America’s Trojan horse inside the EU. It’s to do with imperialism, not democracy. But it does create the possibility for other things to happen. Trotsky described three ways that Europe could be united: by force (Hitler), or by a cartel of the ruling classes in Europe, which is what we have had. But that doesn’t tell you where it could go.
Frank
Here in southern Ireland, we are watching very closely what’s happening in the UK. The reports suggest that Brexit will have the day has struck huge fear into the ruling class in Ireland. Taoiseach Enda Kenny is visiting Liverpool and Manchester to give support to Cameron’s Remain campaign. They do understand the fragile nature of the Irish economy and that the value of money has dropped every day this week, indicating the rapid change of events – having an effect on the price of petrol or if you are trying to get exchange currency for travelling abroad.
We’ve already had a version of what’s happened in Greece. We had a virtual coup political d’état here after the February general election. The previous coalition of a far right Labour with an even further to the right Fine Gael party (one of the two big conservative parties) was thrown out of office. Labour lost 30 seats and ended up with 6 or 7 MPs. The Fine Gael party lost a massive amount of seats. It was an unmistakable rejection of austerity political programme which they have followed relentlessly on Troika’s instructions – the Troika being the European Central Bank, the European Commission, which as everyone knows hasn’t got a shred of democratic credibility, and the International Monetary Fund. It’s having a really damaging effect on our health service which is in ruins.
There is a conniving attempt to privatise water in place of the public service provision, with politicians incredibly saying that water is a rare commodity in Ireland where in fact there is an immense amount of water. There is an attack on democracy on every hand’s turn. There is a takeover of the parliamentary political process by Kenny, once again with the support of his opposition. The question of democracy in Europe is not theoretical at all. It’s happening on your doorstep, where a de facto dictatorship by the far right is taking place. We’ll see what happens in Britain next week, but parallels between the two countries are legion, including corruption of the police service right to the very very top.
It’s impossible to get serious topics debated in the mainstream media which is no more than a propaganda machine. In the UK you still have the possibility for creating an alternative, collective point of view for creating an international, transnational approach to defending our democracy in the different countries of Europe. That’s the important agenda facing all of us across Europe.
Valerie
I agree with most of you that the EU is not a democratic institution. Decision-making still goes through the institutions of the European Council, the European Commission, the Council of Ministers, the European parliament, the Court of Justice, the European Central Bank and the European court. We also have the Citizens Initiative. But there are so many addendums within this Union that actually prevent the democratic process of citizens getting anywhere. I don’t agree that the EU is separate – think it is part and parcel of the process of capitalism. The TTIP agreement will provide an acceleration of this. We will all be affected by these trade agreements. They accelerate the neo-liberal agenda. They overlap and corroborate a range of agreements as does CETA. These are all being negotiated in secret. They are all a dictatorial agenda in our society. They are interlinked with the massive worldwide crisis.
We need to promote a real democracy by the people, for the people. How do we do this? We have the Assemblies for Democracy which are up and running and there is the RDM. We need to think how to promote these. We are looking for an Irish exit. The more we can de-stabilise the organs of the capitalist class the better chance we have for a real democracy.
Damien
Nothing will change, in my opinion, until we people start demanding change. The reality is that the entire global political system is rotten to the core. E.g. How many people know that as a sovereign parliament our government can print its own interest and debt free money. It did in 1914 and it was called the Bradbury Plan. What this means is that not a single penny of the £4,000 billion national debt was ever necessary.
As evidence today is that the banks are ready to crash again. I believe it will not be allowed to happen before the in-out referendum. It’s already happened in Austria I do not mean to scare people but your money will be frozen if it’s allowed to crash. So please can we move away from the history lessons, and start talking about what is to be done.
Steve
If we don’t know where we’ve come from we won’t know where we are going.
Fiona
I have already voted Remain by postal vote as a reluctant remainer, generally agreeing with Steve. But I dislike the phrase “backward” with reference to the working class. I prefer to rephrase it to “not politically conscious”, and perhaps a reflection of alienation, resentment and frustration. Apologies, but I’ve got to go. Have a great further discussion. It’s been very good so far.
Paul
I agree with Damien that we now have to think about where we go from here. I also agree with Steve that the history lessons are important – we have to consider where these things came from. The EU came out of a crisis and it’s in crisis now. It comes out of a crisis in Britain too, otherwise we wouldn’t be having a referendum. A political crisis about the history of the country. It’s about the question of sovereignty of parliament which goes back many many centuries in this country. but which only the right wing has raised. Where does power lie? Of course they say it will return if we have sovereignty in Westminster. Of course we know that’s a lie because whatever happens on June 23, sovereignty will remain with the banks, the corporations and with the markets.
The question is therefore, how do we transfer this sovereignty to people? That can’t be done by abstaining (Steve’s point of view) or by labelling the people who vote against – in the less conscious sections of the working class as backward. It could be that the people arguing for Remain – Labour leadership and TU leaders – are reinforcing this division. They are the ones creating this division by saying there is no alternative to what have. And those who are standing up against that, even in the most confused way, are demanding an alternative. It’s not their fault that there is no where they can go in a progressive sense is not their fault. But they are prepared to strike a blow against the establishment which I shall also be doing next week when I vote to leave. If you have an opportunity to strike a blow you have to strike it as long as you are campaigning for an alternative, which we are doing in the Assemblies for Democracy and in the project for the Real Democracy Movement. There is no possibility for a reform of the EU and a reform here in the UK and we have to link the two. We have to be ready for a major major political crisis whichever way this goes. Britain will not be the same after June 23.
Those who are voting Leave in the hope for a real progressive change – it’s obviously not going to happen. It does offer a chance to put forward a different point of view. And many trade unionists are actually voting against, by the way, Steve. The RMT is officially against, as you know. With 56% voting against they can’t all be reactionary. In Scotland, the support for staying in the EU has been falling away according to the polls.
Corinna
It’s important to think about what needs to be done. Giles Fraser, former chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral, rightly said it’s not who you vote with, but what you vote for. The issue of principles is very important – self-determination, and sovereignty. To suggest that over half the population are backward and racist is simply untrue. People are voting for things and aspirations, they happen to be voting with other people – but they are not voting for Boris Johnson to be Prime Minister. If we are talking about what we are going to do, we have to take the initiative on these principles – that any country has the right not to be dictated to by a larger power. It’s not reactionary to hold that view.
Robbie
The issue of whether the EU can be democratised is critical to the argument – it’s argued by Varoufakis, by some in the Labour Party, by Another Europe is Possible. If this is not possible what is the point of being in the EU. Varoufakis has given a date by when it can be achieved – I think it’s 2025. This needs to be countered. As also the argument that the EU can be used as a basis for organising solidarity with the people of Europe.
I agree with Damien that we need to look for a way forward – we need to work with new bodies that are being thrown up throughout Europe, people who want a true democracy – Podemos in Spain, people in Greece, the strikers and Nuit Debout in France. We need to work with these people.
Thank you, Penny
(some audio problems but not serious)
Peter Anderson
Following from Robbie has said, it’s important to understand the history and the political forces we are up against, otherwise it’s like shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. At the same time, we need to identify what the practical solutions are. One of my frustrations is that people don’t seem to be listening to people like Corbyn, Russell Brand, Varoufakis and Paul Mason, that the solutions lie in creating case studies locally And then take them to scale. We tend to look beyond political spheres that we have influence over. How do we self-organise, identify local priorities and gain direct experience and self-determination, as Corinna sayss, we can start to understand what these political structures should be. Real examples are few and far between.
Even the case studies Robbie referred to are of a certain type of democracy, still largely representative. We do need the transition to a really democratic society. I am keen and excited to be part of the Assemblies for Democracy movement. A really valuable work we could do is to identify a process that feels really democratic and authentic. If we have a two-hour session, at the end of it we could feel that we have actually determined the direction of the group in an experiental way and we felt empowered. Once we have direct experience, we could then begin to advocate for that process the groups, and communities we are in. Maybe the RDM could be then a real showcase of how this Assembly for Democracy process is evolving and materialising in all these different organisations.
Steve
If you think about Russia under the Czarist system. it was more authoritarian than anything the EU has given us. Because capitalism was uprooting the old systems it created the objective basis for democracy in Russia. Not just the idea, but the understanding of how the economic basis was developing which made democracy possible. The economy of Europe has been integrated and makes a European economy possible. It is crying out for democracy. Either the whole thing is going to crash and burn or it will become democratic. I don’t think Europe can be reformed into a democracy. But a democratic revolution is possible. Despite the sell-outs by Syriza, Greek democracy could not beat European finance capital but European democracy could do that. Varoufakis, who was at the heart of the beast, actually understood that. It’s a lesson for the whole of Europe. We need to tap in to the democratic movements in Europe.
Gerry
It’s interesting to hear Steve talk about what was possible 99 years ago. I don’t believe that there is something called the European economy. The reality proves something different. There is actually a powerful form of democracy at work – that of the shareholder certificates which are held by people whose interests are not in Europe, Ireland or the UK, but that of corporations which want to exploit labour to benefit the shareholders.
The original concept behind what became the European Union – the six iron, steel and coal producing countries, who tried to reconstitute themselves at the end of World War II– at the heart was the Thyssen-Krupp company – it was actually the Americans who insisted that its head was released from prison. It still exists and it isn’t a global corporation – it’s one of the few that is German. While the argument for a democratic revolution sounds attractive, it’s not something that Varoufakis is actually proposing –he is attempting to restore capital by 2025.
Brexit is being blamed for every conceivable ill that is befalling capitalism, in fact whatever was going to happen in any case – such as the collapse of the markets. The question is indeed how are we to proceed? We need a perspective of a different society not based on a shareholder democracy but to replace it with a real democracy with a collective ownership. If not, we are in danger of remaining stuck in the past. We need a bigger view of the world that seeks to transform the world globally.
Corinna
We have indeed come to the end of the limited form of democracy that has prevailed. We need to find ways of developing new kinds of democracy, participative, local, national and global, direct and digital – to inspire ourselves that we are indeed finding solutions. Can we draw out ways forward from our discussion, which has been wide-ranging?
Peter
One way forward is for this group to run an authentic process of democracy ourselves.
Steve
It’s true that capitalism was always global from the very start. I don’t think we have left behind the age of imperialism. We have not entered the age when everything is just global corporations, although we may reach that point where we can do without nation states. But we haven’t arrived at that point yet. It’s a movement to get out of the EU, not to get out of the UK. Nation states are still part of this story. Italy, Germany, the US didn’t always exist. We don’t have to see nation states as there forever. The EU is the the process of reforming or re-forming another nation state.
Paul
Damien is rightly talking about solutions. It is both practical and not practical. One of the practical challenges is to transcend the present nation state and to form a truly democratic state. That is the main problem: who holds power now and how do we change that? That is not yet at the forefront of people’s minds. A practical proposition is to make this a big central campaign. It’s a challenge to show how these power structures work.
We have to see historically where this state came from, what is its relationship to the present economic set up.
The solution is basically organising people in assemblies to begin to set up rival power structures to challenge the existing power structures and at a certain point to replace them.
The nation state is ready to go. It actually is a barrier. The contradiction between the nation state and the globalised nature of the economy is actually behind the present crisis. Just look at the United States. It is time to transcend this 18th century nation state as the last word in how people to organise themselves. We need to think beyond the nation state and see the problems of the nation state. It has run its course, which is why we are in such crisis.
Donald
I agree with Damien. We can’t ignore history but we can’t start the next chapter in human interaction if we keep re-reading the last one.
Peter
A rival structure could be geographic cooperatives where residents become cooperative members of their communities. We know how to topple power structures i.e. the Arab spring. We need to learn how to fill the voids created to replace them with self-organising processes.
Damien
We will never move forward and make progress unless we start talking solutions, by holding mass assemblies and even through mass civil disobedience.
Valerie
We had a lot of protest and civil disobedience here in Ireland, with the water charges protest process, with two of our protesters being jailed. But it was still part of the system, trying to change the system. We have started a collective of networking to work on moving beyond protest to real democracy. We are still in favour of protest and civil disobedience but we have to find a way forward. What is the next move we can make? We can’t reform the state by protesting. We have to look at the state and its power – that is the hard part. How can we as a collective create a different structure?
Steve
We ought to be trying to get people from other European countries. Is it Irish water or European water?
Peter
The next Webinar could be underpinned with an Assembly for Democracy process. We can refine the process of what real democracy looks like.
Damien
Thanks, Penny, for speaking my words. I would be happy to do a 15-minute solution-focused presentation based on Designing Democracy. http://www.redesigningdemocracy.co.uk
Next webinar – possibly the first Thursday in July.
Penny – thanks everyone!
Penny’s contribution made in advance of the discussion on Real Democracy’s discussion forum
On the immigration issue:
Behind Boris Johnson’s rhetoric about reclaiming “British sovereignty” there is a complex of moving contradictions to do with class, power and privilege, the historic ideas of empire, the present reality of capitalist globalisation and the impossibility of turning the clock back to a time before EU membership, or before globalisation. In that sense, even if Leave wins, their project is doomed to failure. An alternative space will open up.
Why then can we not similarly see the moving, contradictory essence behind what workers mean when they say “it’s about immigration”. I would argue that is the surface appearance of a number of contradictions, which can be summarised as a rejection of the whole globalisation project, of which the EU is a crucial part.
People’s jobs, wages, skills, trade union rights and their pride as workers has been consistently undermined and broken up by corporate globalisation. They now live in a low-wage economy where the working class majority is a subject to be worked over by the state.
So objectively, the class interests of the working class and the Johnson/UKIP Leavers are diametrically opposed. This incontrovertible fact can become the key factor emerging in the days and weeks ahead.
Labour can’t respond to the immigration question, only exacerbate it, since throughout the Blair years they had their own anti-immigrant rhetoric which resulted in horrific bureaucracy and detention for many asylum seekers and their families. Attacking migrants light, which is what Labour’s deputy leader Tom Watson did this week, just reinforces prejudices.
You have to address the essence of what workers are saying, which none of the established parties can do because the essence is corporate-driven globalisation and markets rigged by the capitalist class. Accepting free movement of labour was a fundamental part of the EU’s response to globalisation. Yet no one at Westminster will acknowledge that because to do so would require an alternative to a system that puts profit and markets before people.
Many workers, frustrated by the impossibility of bringing about any fundamental change, could be attracted to nationalist parties like UKIP because there seems to be no alternative, no other way forward. The change that many want won’t come through the present political system because, like the EU, it represents powerful economic and financial interests. Sovereignty, real power, lies with these interests, not Parliament.
The days after the referendum are likely to see a political crisis and a reactionary backlash. We need to be very aware and very prepared to move quickly to try to propose the alternative by building a movement for real democracy. The challenge will be getting this message across in the areas where the right-wing proto-fascists will be most active.
The only answer to this is to speak out for a democratic transformation of the state – and in fact to propose to leave the EU without at the same time working for that transformation would be reckless.